Buying a used Yamaha piano from Rick Jones: U1, X, UX1 or YU1?

Hi,

I've been doing some research and am familiar with the arguments against 'grey market' pianos.

Suffice it to say that I'm going to get a used one and I favor a Yamaha. Can people tell me if there's an appreciable difference between the U1, X, UX1 or YU1 pianos?

Also, I'm talking to Rick Jones piano who is just outside of DC. Has anyone dealt with his store? I've heard good things, but would appreciate any feedback.

For the pianos listed above, I've seen prices in the mid $3000s to the mid $4000s, and these pianos are about 15-30 years old.

Okay, here's some food for thought. Ignoring the grey market thing for the moment, by now everyone on this ng knows that the 'list' price for a piano is twice the wholesale price. So, if a piano 'lists' for $12000 the dealer pays $6000 plus shipping (maybe $500?) and then he has delivery and tuning and other costs. Anyway, suppose you buy a piano new and then need to get rid of it immediately. You go to a dealer, and he is going go offer you something less than he can buy a new one for of course. So, in our example, if you had actually paid $12k for the piano, the dealer would offer you something less than $6k, probably more like $5k. Now, perhaps you could get another $1000 from a private party so maybe you could sell it for $6k or $6500. In the real sold, you probably paid between $8000 and $9000 for the piano to begin with (25 to 30% off) so that isn't quite as bad as it sounds. What I was getting to is this: If this shop tells you that a new model sells for $12k and they're selling their 25 year old grey market import for $6k and you think that's a bargain I have some water front property I want to show you. Seriously, I can't see any pattern to his pricing. In one example, he compares a 1927 (yes that year is right) cheap American Conover to a modern Korean Conover. The only thing they have in common is their length. I can't judge the quality of his pianos over the internet, but I am not encouraged by the quality of his advertising.

Rick had some practically new Baldwins a while back (they had been sitting in a warehouse unplayed) that I thought were a good buy. As far as the Yamahas go the tag price is inflated like every where else. I don't know what he actually sells them for. If you buy one of these pianos, however, you should also be prepared to buy new hammers and shanks because they've almost all have had the hell played out of them somewhere over in Asia, and while they may be voiced to sound ok for a while that won't last long!! So factor this into the price. New hammers and shanks are an expensive proposition (like a couple of thousand dollars) and then be prepared to have the action regulated to accomodate the new hammers!!

Your question is a relatively simple and straightforward one, but I would like to use your question to address numerous issues raised over the years on this newsgroup in reference to Rick Jones and the pianos he sells. Hopefully, much of it will be of use to you, or others like you.

I am a Registered Piano Technician with the Piano Technicians Guild, and have been servicing pianos in-home for Rick Jones' clients for 11 years. I am a self-employed piano technician, not a Rick Jones employee, and I have many clients of my own as well. In the past 11 years, I have literally performed tens of thousands of tunings on thousands of Rick Jones' pianos, the vast majority of which are Yamaha and Kawai pianos from Japan, the so-called 'gray-market' pianos you may have heard about.

First of all, I totally reject the term 'gray-market,' as it is a term coined by new piano dealers whose sales are threatened by the these pianos, and wish to brand them with a term that will make potential buyers of these pianos think twice, or perhaps I should say, not think at all, but rather run to their nearest new piano dealer.

In 11 years of servicing these pianos, I have never run across a single so-called 'gray market' piano that did not perform up to the same standards as pianos made in the US for the US market. The question that usually arises is whether the wood used to build these pianos is able to handle the dryness created by the heating systems in most American homes. While it may be true that the Japanese climate is very humid, and central heating is not nearly as widely used in Japan as in the US, that doesn't seem to translate into wood that falls apart or becomes damaged when exposed to American central heating systems. Think of how foolish Yamaha and Kawai would have to be to make pianos that could not survive outside their home country. Suppose a person purchased a piano in Japan and then moved to the US with their piano only to find that it falls apart or is heavily damaged after being exposed to sustained dryness. Think of how damaging that would be to Yamaha and Kawai's international reputation. My experience is the exact opposite. The thousands of so-called 'gray-market' Yamaha and Kawai pianos I have serviced have shown no such problems. On the other hand, I have seen pianos made in Brazil, China, and Russia that were purchased there and brought here by their owners only to become crippled and unusable after only a year or two in an American home, due to wood that wasn't prepared for dry heat. It's not a pretty sight. In fact, it's quite sad. What a waste of perfectly good trees. If these so-called 'gray-market' Yamaha and Kawai pianos could not cope with life in an American home environment, it would have revealed itself a long time ago.

Furthermore, I have owned one of these pianos myself for 5 years. I purchased it from Rick Jones in 1999. It is a very typical example of what Rick Jones sells. My piano is a Kawai vertical made in Japan in 1986. When I first saw it, Rick Jones' crew had not yet done anything to it. It looked as if the previous owner had played it very little, if at all. It was clean and new looking inside. The piano now lives in my old apartment building with me where humidity control is very difficult. On cold winter days like today, with the heat inside running at full blast, the humidity can sometimes plunge to 12%! Furthermore, I beat the hell out of this piano, pounding it mercilessly whenever I do play it. And yet, besides some obvious wear to the hammers from all my ham-fisted playing, the piano performs as it did when I bought it. Furthermore, several of my best friends, who trust my advice, have bought similar pianos from Rick Jones, and have been thanking me ever since for finding them such a great piano at such a good price.

As a potential piano buyer, whether this is your first piano or not, you should do your homework. Asking around this newsgroup is one way to do that, but you should also read Larry Fine's 'The Piano Book,' now in its 4th edition, and in which a new section about 'gray-market' pianos has been added. On this topic, he basically says the same thing as me, and like me, his conclusions are based on years of field research, not rumor and speculation.

As far as Rick Jones Pianos is concerned specifically, you should not worry.

Every piano he sells comes with a 10-year warranty.

Every pianos he sells is reconditioned, which is to say that any wear that may have been put on the piano by the previous owner, which is usually very little, has been removed to make the piano pretty much like new.

Every piano he sells can be traded-in for any other Rick Jones piano of greater value for the price you paid for it, forever, which means that any piano you buy is like a down payment on a better future piano.

The people who work on the floor greeting customers are not commissioned sales people in suits. They are piano workers, who double as piano technicians, piano refinishers, and piano movers when they're not greeting customers. They don't try to pressure you into buying anything, and don't try to sell you more piano than you need.

In short, it's a good operation, and its success is due to a simple and honest approach to doing business that most people find refreshing and comforting.

Rick Jones has a good reputation in the area and that is something that is very important to him. He has worked hard for it. He will bend over backwards to please you, and if by some freak occurrence you should buy a piano from him that displeases you, he will stop at nothing to regain your happiness. Nothing upsets him more that the idea that someone out in the world who bought a piano from him is not happy with it, and is out there somewhere soiling his good name.

Furthermore, I think highly enough of Rick Jones and his operation to put my name and reputation on the line on this newsgroup to endorse his business, and I have no concern that doing so will in any way reflect badly on me or my integrity.

In short, you can buy from Rick Jones with confidence.

All the best, Paul Yarish, RPT

Well that is all well and good

Most of the pianos that come through the door need new hammers?

Where on earth did you ever hear that nonsense?

It's very simple:

In my experience, if a piano needs a new set of hammers, it gets a new set of hammers. I've been in the shop when they're being put on, so I know it's being done. One thing Rick Jones is not is stingy. However, if the original hammers only need resurfacing, then they get resurfaced and voiced, not replaced. Why waste a perfectly good set of hammers? The vast majority of the pianos do not need new hammers, and have not been played to death in institutional settings.

Who told you that?

Certainly not someone who has bought or serviced a piano from Rick Jones. Many of his pianos look like they've never been played at all by their previous owners. I should know. I tune these pianos right after they are sold, and they are tiptop. Just today, after I wrote my original reply to you, I went out and tuned a Kawai vertical that I would swear was new. I doubt if it was ever played at all. Not a trace of wear. Everything inside was original and immaculate. I also tuned a Yamaha U-3 that was purchased from Rick Jones 9 years ago. I've been tuning this piano since the owner first bought it. It's still in tiptop shape, and performs as well or better than many new pianos. What's more, the owner loves it, and she's a trained pianist. Furthermore, I love tuning it, because it does what it's supposed to do, and I don't have to bend over backward to make it passable. I don't have to make excuses for it, like I've had to do with other dealers' pianos I've serviced in the Washington metropolitan area. I've seen how many corners are usually cut by other dealers selling used pianos. Nobody does the stuff to used pianos that Rick Jones does, and that's why technicians in the area love working on his customers' pianos. Hell, most used pianos aren't even tuned by the shops that sell them, and you can forget about regulation and voicing.

Like I said, in my experience, hammers are replaced if needed. Nobody gets a piano with worn out, deeply grooved, flattened-out hammers. What fool in the used piano business would sell a squeezed-out, beaten up piano with a 10-year warranty and a guaranteed trade-in?

Someone who wanted to be out of business very soon.

Please, don't take my word for it. Go look for yourself. Go to the shop. Lift a few lids. Play a few pianos. Look in the shop and see the work that being done to the pianos before they are turned loose in the showroom. You don't need to believe me...you can see for yourself. Personally, it makes no difference to me whether you buy a piano from Rick Jones or not, but it sounds to me like you've picked up some bad information about his business, probably originating from a competitor who wished Rick Jones had never been born (he's quite a threat to the new piano businesses in his area) and you don't know what to believe. I don't blame you for being confused, but like I said, you don't need to take my word for it...look for yourself, and by all means, have fun.

Best,

Well, I for one am very happy to hear from both Michael and Paul. I am not personally familiar with Rick Jones operation, but I am familiar with the piano business in the DC area in general and it is certainly nothing to be proud of. If Mr. Jones is indeed satisfying his customers in the way described it shows that there are still a few respectable people in the piano business. I can't imagine where Mr. Jones is getting these pianos as I looked into the possibility some years ago and all I found were exporters selling 90% ex institutional pianos with new finishes applied. I will curb my skepticism and accept the opinion from Mr. Yarish who is in a position to know that they are worth the money. I am still a bit skeptical about the pricing and advertising on their web site, but that is certainly a more minor issue.

Paul, I lived in the Washington D.C. area for many years before moving south for the winter and not returning. I have seen a couple problems with the 'grey Market' Yamahas and Kawais, but the problems were self inflicted by the owners of the pianos (complete climate control systems were improperly used....plugged in backwards) Other than that I have never had a problem with the Pianos or Rick Jones Pianos. I have found Rick to be a gentleman and an honest dealer. several of my customers have bought pianos from Rick and are very happy with them. Purchasing a piano from Rick Jones is one of the safest ways to own a quality piano without paying an arm and a leg.

I've seen a few imported Japanese pianos that appear somewhat tired and have been priced accordingly...and others that look and play better than new ones at the local Kawamaha dealer. As with cars, there can be different levels of used. Somehow it's ok to have a showroom full pianos that are beat to death as long as they say Steinway, yet as soon as you place a like new 'gray market' U3 on the floor you're a piano criminal.

Recycling is noble and politically correct as long as it's something other than a Japanese piano.

Well let me ask you something. Where is it that you think his pianos come from?? For the most part they are 5-10 years old or older. It seems to me highly unlikely that these pianos come from private sellers. They have come from institutions, like piano conservatories, where they are played to death. Though I have not looked at the uprights, I have been to Rick's store many a time and the grand pianos are shrill sounding as Yamahas that have been played upon alot tend to be. Is this because they are gray market?? NO! It is because the hammers are worn down and quite frankly I have never heard of anyone resurfacing Yamaha hammers.

Now, you can voice these worn hammers and the piano might sound just fine for a while but this will not last for long. A friend of mine purchased a C5 or C7 from Rick. Sounded great in the showroom, but then became very shrill at home. When I looked at the hammers it was quite apparent that they were substantially worn down. He had Rick re voice the hammers and that did not do the trick. The piano was ok at first, then became shrill very quickly and would not play quietly. The cost of replacing the hammers and shanks and then regulating the action is several thousand dollars. My friend concluded that his good buy was not such a great buy after all when he considered the money that he would have to put into the piano.

Now most buyers will not notice the things that I have just pointed out so it probably does not matter. That, and the fact that it is likely not cost effective to do so, is probably why Rick does not replace hammers. But if you are a discerning pianist (and I'm sure that this is the rare buyer at Rick's store)