Hamburg Steinway vs. American Steinway

What is the difference? Is the scale the same? Why do they sound different?

I am not a tech and our tech guys can probably tell you more details about the differences, but as a pianist and piano nut who has spent time with both instruments on both sides of the pond I can tell you this:

1. The Hamburg factory still makes the A and O models I believe.

2. The Hamburgs that I have played have all been high gloss, where most of the American instruments are satin.

3. Every Hamburg I have played and that consists of four of them ranging in age from new to 10 years old has been very glassy, bright overtones with solid full bass. The Americans, at least when they are newer are a bit more soft spoken and subtle.

For example. My good friend in Kent, England who is quite a fine pianist has a circa 1995 model O in a large living room in her Edwardian with high ceilings, area rugs and decent furniture. It is one of the most agressive piano I have ever played. The treble has a completely different sound than any American Steinway I have ever played.

This does not mean that it is ugly or gross sounding, but it is just different. I personally prefer the American instrument.

Now the techs can take over and tell you the actual differences.

Damion Bertram, pianist, conductor

I don't see a lot of people jumping on this post. Perhaps this has been long settled by the regulars. Fact is, there are actual differences between pianos made in the two locations today. The U.S. factory does not export outside of North America, ie. the New York facility only manufactures for North America. Steinway Hamburg supplies the rest of the world (Europe, Asia). Hamburg Steinways are shipped at 443 Hz, New York 440 Hz. American 'ebony' (black) Steinways are laquered. Hamburg Steinways have a high-gloss polyester finish. New York actions are presently made in the U.S. facility. Hamburg instruments use an action made by Renner to Steinway specs. In the past there were other differences concerning the actions and hammers. The variation in action and hammers could affect the sound, of course. Everything else above is a matter of logistics or cosmetic.

Steinway's two locations build different models as listed here: http://www.steinway.com/html/showroom/cat_1models.html

The sizes for Steinway are S, M, L, O, A, B, C, D, small to large. As you can see, the O, the A, and the C are presently made only in Hamburg. These are models that were all previously manufactured and sold in the U.S. and fill the gaps between the model B and D, and B and L. The O has a round tail as opposed to the same-sized square-tailed L, which has more soundboard in the area close to the bass bridge. In Larry Fine's 'Piano Book,' (4th ed.) you can read when these 'Hamburg' models were discontinued in N. America.

So, what's the same? Answer: Everything else, including the scales for the models made at both locations.

The website above uses the word 'identical' in reference to the Hamburg and N.Y. question, which I interpret as 'identical within quality control limits'. That is a good aim for an international manufacturer of high standards, but in reality, no two pianos can be 'identical' in all respects, even if manufactured at the same facility.

I've read that renner hammers are hard, whereas the hammers made in the American Steinway factory are soft and always need to be treated with hardening chemicals to properly voice the instrument. My dealer here said the Hamburg Steinways are preferred by most international recording artists and have a warmer tone. I remember a Steinway dealer from Chicago in rmmp (was it Steve Marcus?) who said that all the artists who perform there use the U.S. models except for Daniel Barenboim, who specifically requested a Hamburg piano. Many pianists rave about the old O's. I've never heard raves about an L.

I remember reading an account of a Horrowitz concert where Gidon Kramer (violinist) attributed the 'harsh' sound to H's American Steinway. I deal regularly with three German O's and have heard many performances on various German D's. In the right hands, they are all wonderful instruments. Pianists tell me every Steinway is different and spend a lot of time looking for 'the right one' when they buy for themselves. My experience with the U.S. instruments is from over 10 years ago, and at the time I wasn't paying too much attention to subtle differences in piano sound. I've read that the U.S. factory was plagued with quality problems during the 60's, 70's and 80's, (extensive post about that here a week or two ago, but I can't find it, sorry), but from what I've deduced, the Hamburg branch was not as affected by these problems.

Its said musical tastes differ, but IMO, generalizations concerning nationality are often made on the basis of very little information. Big 'American' sound, warm 'European' Klangkultur. I beleive one needs to listen to the individual artist. Many things have contributed to the formation of an 'international' pedagogical-, technical-, sound-, and aesthetic- ideal. With a flood of recordings, our ears are used to everything these days, wherever we live.

IMO, two pianos can even come from the same factory and have very different playing characteristics and sound, depending on how they were shipped, stored, used/abused, played and especially how they were serviced after the sale. Steinway keeps the New York/Hamburg difference as small as possible, but two pianos are never going to be 'identical'. Thus, playing up the difference based on the manufacturing location and making generalizations is faulty reasoning. BTW, there are some great books about the history of Steinway, the leading piano manufacturer of the 20th century. A great piano success story indeed. It all starts with a German Klavierbauer by the name of Steinweg...

Thank you for a very informative post, Edvard.

Do you happen to know the manufacturing source and model of the Steinway used by Arthur Rubinstein to record the Chopin nocturnes? He only played on Steinways, and the liner notes say the nocturnes were recorded in Italy. I have every Rubinstein recording, and the piano used for the nocturnes stands out as having a singularly exquisite tone. When I bought my Steinway M in 1972 I looked for a piano that had that tone; it was sheer luck that I found one on the showroom floor in Astoria, Queens. Do you think the techs intentionally build slight differences into identical models to enhance sales, or is it just natural variation of parts and construction?

I would think that the concert hall, recording engineer, equipment(i.e. mic preamps, microphones, recording media} etc., would have a great deal to do with the percieved quality of the sound. Correct me if I'm wrong

R hollett

Neither. It is the result of an inability to consistently build a decent piano.

Larry Fletcher Dealer/technician

Doing the work of three men.....Larry, Curly, & Moe

I've played both, and prefer the sound of the American Steinway. I think it would be accurate to say that many of the great artists of the 20th century preferred the American Steinway, for example, Paderewski, Rachmaninoff, Horowitz, etc.

I think it's amazing that the only thing that ever comes-out of Larry's mouth is negative BS. People who are secure with themselves don't need to spend their time putting others down.

It's sad that he consistently uses this forum to badmouth people and products, rather than constructively discuss pianos and their related issues.

Maybe he should see someone to work-through all this anger.

A cheap comment like the one below not only shows that he knows nothing about the design differences between Hamburg and NY Steinways, (of which there are many, for specific reasons), but also that he takes a valid question on this forum and turns it into another one of his personal vendettas against Steinway, a brand that he doesn't even sell.

Sad.

That's a bit of an overstatement. You don't like what I had to say about Steinway pianos, because you hang your ego on being on the 'Steinway roster'.

Another overstatement. I hit a sore spot with you, and you immediately jump to painting the whole house red.

What I said had nothing to do with anger. Your response however, has *everything* to do with anger. You are the one who is angry sir, not me.

Yes, I know the differences between the two, more than you do, apparently. There aren't many, other than a couple of models that aren't made in NY, and there is basically only one specific reason for the few differences that exist. Do you want to know what they are? I'd tell you, but you'd pitch another hissy fit and accuse me of having a 'personal vendetta' again, so I won't.

Yes, I think I will. Other than the couple of models made in Germany that aren't made in NY, the main difference between the two is craftsmanship. Germany has good craftsmanship, NY has spotty craftsmanship. That is the facts behind my statement which you have been so offended by.

Well, here is what I said that caused your panties to bunch up:

Apparently you aren't aware of this, being so enamored with having your name listed on the Steinway roster (along with anyone else who wants to be) but my remark is commonly accepted view among many technicians and pianists alike, and is so well discussed that it is old news. It is not a slap at Steinway, it is a view held by many people. I'm sorry you don't like it, but that's just how it is.

Larry Fletcher Dealer/technician

Doing the work of three men.....Larry, Curly, & Moe

<< I think it's amazing that the only thing that ever comes-out of Larry's mouth is negative BS. >>

Speaking as a former industry participant with a fair amount of piano product knowledge and experience, and with two years of RMMP experience, your assertion is 180 degrees out of phase with reality.

<< People who are secure with themselves don't need to spend their time putting others down. >>

That's another bum rap that all people with strong opinions and leadership skills have to endure from the great unwashed. Because you cannot deal openly and honestly with strong opinions contrary to your own, you resort to name calling. Tsk. Tsk. Bad form, Jon.

<< It's sad that he consistently uses this forum to badmouth people and products, rather than constructively discuss pianos and their related issues.

I have yet to see him consistently badmouth anyone or anything