Im new... Sinopolis and Karajans Mahler - Tintners and Jochum Bruckner - Klemperers Brahms

Hello to you!!!

I'm new here. I'm Daland from Italia.

I would ask you about some recordings, to be sure I am buying good products for my birthday: What do you think about Sinopoli's Mahler? I know his 7th, 5th and 1st and I like them, but here in Italy I'm one of not many black sheep who like his Mahler and so I would like to know what do you think about it.

I've seen there are two Mahler 9 directed by Karajan: a studio recording in 1979 (DGG duo) and a live recording of 1982 (DGG high price). Which one do you suggest me? Or are there so different and I have to have both of them? I know Karajan Mahler 4, 5 and LVDE and I like them very much, so I expect a very good Nineth.

I saw two Bruckner series: Jochum Berliner (DGG) and Tintner's (Naxos). I just have got Jochum Staatskapelle Dresden (EMI). Is the Berliner cycle better or not? I was interested in Tintner box because there are different symphony versions than usual. How is it like?

Finally I'm very interested in Klemperer Brahms symphonies... I know his German Requiem and I find it the best (I have also Giulini, Karajan and Abbado). Are symphonies also very good?

Where can I buy these boxes in internet? Can you please suggest me a good site with good prices?

Thanks a lot!

Daland, welcome... many of your questions have already been discussed at length in this group & others - you can access these discussions by searching the newsgroups using Google (www.google.com) and appropriate key words. Good luck!

On Fri, 28 Mar 2003 14:55:15 +0100, 'Daland'

Sinopoli's Mahler is controversial. I've only heard the sixth and didn't like it. I've heard bad things about the 5th as well. At best, an acquired taste.

Nearly every critic greatly prefers the live recording, which is generally regarded as Karajan's greatest Mahler performance. Karajan eschews the hyper-emotional, almost neurotic type of interpretation favored by Bernstein in favor of an interpretation that stresses the beauty and nobility in the score. The BPO plays with extraordinary beauty and clarity.

Both the Jochum's are very good. The DG recordings with the BPO are very exciting, with flexible tempos. Tintner is also very good. Slow tempos combined with great attention to the ebb and flow of Bruckner's long musical paragraphs. Only problem with Tintner is many of the recordings are made an orchestra from Ireland that no one would mistake for the VPO or the BPO. But his 3rd with the Scottish NSO is one of the best Bruckner recordings I've ever heard.

The second is exceptional, the others solid, though I've never been a big fan of Klemperer's First. If you want a different take on Brahms, you might want to try Furtwangler. He's quite a bit different from what Giulini, Karajan, Abbado and other 'line' conductors do with the score.

It should be mentioned that Sinopoli's 8th is usually held in high regard even by those who otherwise don't care too much about his Mahler.

Not so interesting as his 8th. Bernsteins the name in Mahler.

two Mahler 9 directed by Karajan: a studio

If its a matter of the two, then the live is better. If it's a matter of the 9th over all I suggest the new Abbado.

two Bruckner series: Jochum Berliner (DGG) I prefer the EMI - the gems of the DGG set are the 4,8 and 9th.

Tintner's (Naxos).

Very good set. Must get.

Klemperer Brahms symphonies

If you have his German Requiem and Abbado, Giulini and Karajan you've pretty much got it covered. Google search if you are looking for any interesting perspectives ie Klieber Brahms 4, Furtwangler etc. But if you really want more Klemperer, his Brahms 4 is good

My reaction ranges from indifference to strong enthusiasm (I'm especially keen on his 3 and 8, which I don't think have any superiors overall).

Get the 1982 - amazing finale.

Note that it's not all Berlin; much of it's Bavaria. Since you already have the EMI (that would be my choice between the two), and since they're not that different anyway, I would suggest that you try a quite different set (assuming you want another set rather than individual recordings).

I've not heard all of them. Of those I did, I was disappointed by 5 and 9 but rather liked the performances of the others (0, 8, 1, 3) and found the editions of some interest. Note that many are very enthusiastic about this set.

If you like the Requiem, you will probably like the symphonies for much the same reasons - though they're not as well recorded.

I don't mean to be facetious, but Karajan's two 9ths are so much better than his other Mahler that I fear you may not like them if you like his stupefyingly boring 4th, for example.

Paul Goldstein

I don't need Karajan's 4th or 5th in my life at all, but I quite like his 6th and the second (i.e., live) recording of the 9th, as well as his sensitive yet enveloping accompaniments of Christa Ludwig in the Ruckert and Kindertotenlieder. I can't recall much about the studio 9th

I agree with you about his 4, 5 and 6. One reason why the earlier 9 isn't memorable is that the live one is not really different in conception, just sufficiently better to make the earlier one redundant - the earlier one sounds like a slightly safe rehearsal for the real thing (which, given Karajan's approach to recordings, it doubtless was). His Das Lied is distinguished by - surprise! - the distinctive orchestral colours he conjures up: pastel water-colour greys, blues and mauves in contrast to, say, Klemperer's bold oils. (You don't need it for the singing - Ludwig is as desirable as she is for Klemperer and Bernstein, but probably not more so, Kollo as relatively undesirable as he is for Solti and Bernstein.)

I agree with the replies I've seen so far. Sinopoli's Mahler 8 is very good, as is Karajan's live 9th, not that I've listened to either for quite some time. I'm not Bruckner's biggest fan either, but I've found the Naxos series to range from 'quite' good to excellent, the 3rd especially really convinced me that there's a decent piece of music there.

Klemperer's Brahms' symphonies are only average in my opinion, except the 2nd which is one of my favourites of all, come the finale Klemperer really casts his inhibitions aside. I've never been totally convinced by his German Requiem despite it's widespread praise. In fact most recrodings have some significant problem in one area or another (soloists, choir, brass, pacing, there's always something substandard about one or more), it's a very elusive piece.

I agree with the replies I've seen so far. Sinopoli's Mahler 8 is very good, as is Karajan's live 9th, not that I've listened to either for quite some time. I'm not Bruckner's biggest fan either, but I've found the Naxos series to range from 'quite' good to excellent, the 3rd especially really convinced me that there's a decent piece of music there.

Along with Jochum on EMI, I have found Tintner to be the most sheerly satisfying in Bruckner. Of special note are the early symphonies ( 0,1,2 and 3), with the 5th, 7th and 9th being excellent as well. The other symphonies are never less than good. There appears to be an authority about Tintner's Bruckner that simply disarms criticism for the most part. As for the various revisions (apart from the 4th, the original as does by Inbal) then it doesn't really matter to me. The performance does however. On the other hand, Jochum taffys about with the tempo a fair bit, but on EMI the Dresden orchestra, and Jochum's persuasion, has one believing a lot of the time, but ultimately Tintner is the Bruckner conductor for me. As for the 7th, then Rosbaud on Vox is a special case of Rosbaud being on fire. He generally was. Airchecks I have been kindly sent of Rosbaud's Bruckner 3rd, 4th, 5th and a bit of the 6th, with the SWF sinfonieorchester (circa 1960) prove this, although his 4th isn't that crash hot.

Regards,

# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html See You Tamara (Ozzy Osbourne)

Ray, Taree, NSW