Opinions on Dampp-Chasers?

Hi, I'm the one who bought the Fazioli 228 a few months ago. I love this piano, play it for hours every day, and every musician who's come to play it has raved about it. It's getting a reputation in town as the piano everyone HAS to try out. (To the point of our getting phone calls from complete strangers about our piano. I feel like I've got a movie star living in the house!)

Now I have a question, and I hope the esteemed folks on this board might have some advice. Boston Organ and Piano, where I bought the Fazioli, suggested that we get a Dampp-Chaser installed. We've since heard some less enthusiastic opinions, mainly having to do with the concern about it being a 'heated bar installed right up against your precious piano.' Here's our environmental situation. We live on the ocean in Maine, but we keep the house pretty much at a steady 70 degrees year-round. During the winter, we have humidifiers going and keep the air around 40%. (In summertime, however, when the windows are open, humidity may be a little on the high side.) The piano is in a room out of the sun. Do we need that Dampp-Chaser, and does anyone have any qualms about that heated bar?

Oh, and another question. In your opinion, does rolling a piano from one room to another for performance purposes affect the tuning in any way? It's a straight shot, and the large wheels roll easily. We sometimes need to move it for a day to another room to accommodate larger audiences for recitals here. I would think it'd be okay, as I assume pianos are rolled on and off stages in recital halls all the time. But my husband is squeamish about the whole thing. I told him I'd ask some people who might know (you guys.)

Thanks SO much!

<< Hi, I'm the one who bought the Fazioli 228 a few months ago. <snip> ocean in Maine, but we keep the house pretty much at a steady 70 degrees year-round. During the winter, we have humidifiers going and keep the air around 40%. (In summertime, however, when the windows are open, humidity may be a little on the high side.) The piano is in a room out of the sun. Do we need that Dampp-Chaser, and does anyone have any qualms about that heated bar? >>

Greetings, I don't think any piano is going to fare its best when kept in an open house near the ocean. If you have windows open, you may have considerable air currents at the piano. In this case, a climate control system is only going to be marginally succesful in determining what the piano's actual surroundings are. There are skirts and covers available, if you want to really attempt stability, but my intuition tells me that keeping the humidity up in the winter is about all you can effectively do. The most important thing is that the piano not suffer a huge range between it's humidity extremes. Regards,

Ed Foote RPT http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote CD's at Gasparo.com. GSCD #332, 'Beethoven In the Temperaments' GSCD #344 . 'Six Degrees of Tonality' Caution, these CD's contain pure intervals and extensive liner notes!

Your first and biggest worry is that salty seaside air, especially when windows are open. You'll get rusty strings from it. The Dampp-Chaser won't do much if anything to protect the strings from getting rusty. However a 100% wool string cover will. That would be my first suggestion. You can get a really nice one with the Fazioli name stitched on it from Edwards String Covers, sold by some piano dealers, some technicians, or online catalogs like the one at www.pianoworld.com

Whatever you get, I do suggest 100% wool. It has natural moisture-fighting properties other fabrics don't have. This will really keep your strings nice.

As to the Dampp-Chaser, it sounds like you are saying you will let the house system deal with winter humidity, then get a system strictly for summer. If so, forget the worries about the rod. They are irrational fears as long as you've got the recommended humidistat installed to control the rod(s). However, how beneficial it would be would depend on how humid it gets in summer. If you are going from 40% in winter to 50% in summer it won't make a big difference. But if you are going to something like 80% in summer, the Dampp-chaser will benefit you a lot in keeping the tuning a lot more stable which is more pleasant and saves money in fewer tunings being needed.

In incorrect installations where no humidistat is used, the rod could possibly aggravate existing dryness problems during dry season. But keep in mind these rods are not *hot*, they are *warm*. You can put your hands on them and they won't burn you. Even improperly installed they do not generate enough heat to damage a soundboard *in most circumstances*. However if you had an existing humidity of say, 25%, a rod without a humidistat would make it even drier, possibly resulting in some problems.

But with the humidistat the rod turns off at the appropriate humidity level, so with a good installation there's nothing to worry about.

Regards,

Rick Clark

Rick,

As much as I appreciate your help and respect our advice on many subjects, and I am NOT a piano technician or a piano tuner, since I live in San Diego, as you do, I have asked owners/salesmen about this opinion of yours in our climate. They by and large do not share it. One excellent owner told me the real solution is a whole house humidifier, as without this, this hinges on the outside of the piano will also rust.

Also, I have lived within 3

Humidity in S. California is nothing like Miami. I had an upright for 10 years in LA a mile from the beach without rusting. Protecting the outside hinges is a different job than protecting the soundboard and action. It's a lot cheaper to replace the hinges, too!

I've had Dampp-Chasers on two pianos, and they do a great job of keeping humidity constant. The very early models had only the heater bar, so there were concerns about drying the action. Current models have both a heater bar and a water tank, with a control circuit that either raises or lowers humidity as necessary to keep it in the target range (like a thermostat). See http://www.dampp-chaser.com.

Thanks for the responses!

It's beginning to sound like I'll have to keep the windows closed this summer to keep out the sea air, which the Dampp-Chaser alone might not be able to counteract. We do have central A/C, which I was loathe to use because I love the smell of the ocean, but alas, you're right. The Fazioli wouldn't like those open windows. Since we have other wood instruments in the house (my violin and my son's cello) exerting some climate control would probably be a wise move after all.

And you've allayed my fears about the Dampp-Chaser.

FWIW, I live in North Texas. To me the big advantage of the Dampp-Chaser is the stability it renders to tuning. TS

Alex,

I appreciate your respectful tone of disagreement. However the person I was advising has a grand not an upright like yours. People tend to leave grands open. The room breeze goes right through them. Uprights are better protected because of the closed cabinet, though on oceanfront I wouldn't call any piano exposed to salt air safe against rust. But string covers are not for uprights anyway. The Dampp Chaser system will suffice for any upright.

However, even if uprights tend to not get as rusty as quickly or badly as grands in this climate, they are still subject to the tuning instability caused by our 50% humidity swings, and this alone is justification enough for Dampp-Chaser rods and humidistats.

OTOH, most of the uprights do accumulate a lot of rust if they are old enough. But you don't usually see really bad rust within 20 years as you might in a grand.

There are many techs in the San Diego area who agree with me BTW. Ask Mark Adams for instance, who has been here for decades and serves as president of the PTG, is an established concert tuner, and the main tech for Steinway here, I believe. He is just as adamant as I am about climate problems here. And don't forget that Edwards String covers originated here, because Mr Edwards was a technician who found he needed to make string covers for the locals, and decided to expand on the concept and become a supplier to other techs. In fact the OTHER commercial maker of string covers (Accent Piano Service) is ALSO SoCal based, in South Orange County, and it was also an extension of the covers he was making for private customers locally.

Or see the stream of older, used rusty-stringed grand pianos that come into the stores as trade-ins, before they get restrung. I don't mean ask the salesman if they're rusty, I mean take a good look at them and see for yourself.

In fact I have found San Diego techs on the average to be *more* prone to installing humidity control than techs in Miami. But on the average I would also say they are better educated techs here and that is the reason why.

Not that I need other people for my own opinion. I see rusty-stringed grands in the field every day, and yes I mean San Diego, not Miami. I took hygrometer readings in the homes I serviced in San Diego all this year. The average indoor humidity this past summer was 80%.

You may have gathered information in the way you saw fit and reached a certain conclusion, but I dealt with hundreds of pianos this past year in the field in San Diego and know what I see. If you choose to go with owners and salespeople as your experts, that's your choice. But just because many people remain ignorant about these issues, it doesn't make them correct in their opinions.

So while I find your writing tone agreeable, I certainly disagree with you on the facts, in a very big way. I'm not just a dummy who can't think beyond my experiences in Miami. Humidity and ocean air are definitely problems here.

Regards,

Rick Clark

Alex,

I owe you an apology. Due to confusion with my interface with the USENET I did not simultaneously read your post while composing my reply. Reading your post again I see I made many mistakes of memory, and you did not actually say many of the things I thought you had

reasons I do not post to RMMP much has to due with my interface, which is different since I moved here.

I do not disagree at all with a whole-house approach to humidity control, though I do think for many people it will be too expensive or impractical to achieve. But for those who are inclined towards it, can afford it, and live in a place it is achievable, I agree it gives a level of protection beyond a simple string cover or Dampp-Chaser.

String covers and Dampp-Chaser systems ARE a commonly accepted approach here in San Diego among techs and even some stores. It's not just my 'Miami mindset'. But it is certainly true that they can't protect hinges or other things.

Again I apologise for making many mistakes misinterpreting your post. I will continue to advocate string covers and Dampp-chasers because I feel that most people will not want to go through the trouble of modifying their houses. People in my region of San Diego like their windows open, and that is that. And while yes their hinges may get corroded, that is a pretty minor issue compared to strings and innards which ARE protected by string covers and Dampp-Chaser systems. But I'm not going to say that a whole-house approach is not a very good way to go.

Regards,

Rick Clark

Cy,

It is not quite true that humidity in both locales is nothing alike. But first of all, let's keep in mind that I am talking coastal or 'marine influence' in SoCal, not desert or mountains.

It is true that outdoor humidity goes higher and for greater periods of time in Miami than here. There is less moisture in the So Cal atmosphere. That I grant you. However, what I am concerned with (pianos) is what is going on INSIDE the home.

In Miami, virtually everyone runs air conditioning all year. In years of surveying with a calibrated hygrometer I found the typical INDOOR humidity in Miami homes (with air conditioning) in summer was about 80%. In the winter it gets as low as about 40-50%. Most of the year AC is used, but there may be some spells where people open their windows. Either way, the 'dry' time of year 40-50% indoors is pretty typical.

Now here in coastal So Cal what happens is that most people don't use air conditioning. What they do is open their windows. This past summer I measured the same typical 80% indoor humidity right here in San Diego in homes with pianos. Last winter it got down into the 35%-40% range. I just checked my hygrometer against a sling psychrometer to make sure it is accurate, and it turns out that it is accurate to within about 2%.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the relatively dry atmosphere in SoCal causes rapid temperature drops when the sun goes down, and this can push humidity WAY high. It is not unusual at all to find an outdoor reading of 90-100% around dawn. With open windows in so many houses, this is not without significance. I have found that the worst rust problems around here correlate closely with an open windows situation.

So really I find very similar indoor humidity conditions whether in Miami or San Diego. The difference is, San Diego home humidity isn't much different that outdoor humidity, whereas in air conditioned Miami, the indoor humidity is less than outdoors.

In some ways San diego is a bit worse as I find the seasonal swings in humidity destabilize the tuning a bit more than Miami. The occasional Santa Ana weather aggravates this.

You know, you all can rely on whatever experts you want, or second guess my judgement all you want. But remember that I am the guy who actually did the research, who sees these pianos every day, and 'you heard it here first'.

Now I'm not going to claim that every piano in every house is going to hell immediately without humidity control. There are always a certain unknowns that might favor conditions in one place over another. There is a certain built-in error when attempting to guess exactly what is going to happen in every piano. You simply can't know everything. But I do know what happens most of the time in a given indoor climate, and if there is going to be built in error, I prefer to err on the side of safety. The alternative is to do nothing, wait 20 years, and if the piano suffers climate damage say 'Oh well, I guessed wrong.' But I think my customers want me to err on the side of of caution, warn them what could happen, and install preventative measures if they are inclined to do so.

Regards,

Rick Clark

OK, now I will go through this again, this time able to address your quotes.

Well, I don't know if you're saying they are denying there are climate problems, or if you are saying that a whole house approach is better. If the former, they are wrong, plain and simple. I find rusty pianos virtually every day around here, and I am far from the only tech around here advocating Dampp-Chasers or string covers.

I assume you mean DEhumidifier. Well, OK, that might be real good. However I have not seen ONE SINGLE house since I have been here with such a system. People like to live with open windows here. The string covers in a grand and/or Dampp-Chaser systems are compatible with this lifestyle and will protect the strings. But yes, it is possible for hinges to get rusty.

Well don't assume other pianos are not getting it worse. It does seem to be the case around here that uprights are not hit as hard with rust due to their closed cabinets. I have been noticing pianos like this over the past year. But I find grands hit very hard. I see them every day. Including Fallbrook etc. In drier regions I believe it is because of their open windows, open piano lids, and radically high humidity rates when the temps plummet, not to mention humid summer breezes. Even a dry air mass will produce a high relative humidity if the temp drops quickly.

In fact, I will go as far as to say that I am still waiting to find my first older grand around here without a string cover that *doesn't* have at least some rust.

Yes probably true. But then again you can polish hinges. Is it worth creating a whole-house system and living with the windows closed when you would prefer the breezes in order to protect some brightware? People by and large are NOT going to do that.

If they could make adequate piano strngs from stainless steel they would. But they can't because the physical properties (elasticity, tone, etc) would not be adequate.

You seem to be assuming that because of previous posts of mine you have read that I was saying that each and every piano in our region gets rusty immediately, and since you have found this to not be the case, there must be something wrong with my thinking. Well, I never said that. But I know what the trends are, and my advise is for people to play it safe. The odds are high the climate will affect the piano to a lesser or greater degree, depending on individual circumstances. Why take chances hoping you will be lucky?

I'm not sure which point you mean, but I'm far from the only tech putting in the kinds of systems I do. If you're saying they disagree the climate can be very damaging here, then you are talking to people who simply don't know what they are talking about. You need better advisers, people who actually know something about piano tech field work. If you are saying a whole-house system is a little better, then OK.

Not so different INDOORS than you probably think. I have quanitfied it scientifically. You can do the same, since you are so skeptical. Get yourself an accurate hygrometer and measure the indoor humidity throughout the year in a large sampling of houses.

I haven't seen any trends yet in 'rust proof strings'. There is nothing in the tech literature about it either. There would certainly be tech articles in the Journal if it existed. Your statement would be laughable to any piano technician. Believe me the piano companies would be bragging about it loudly if they had it. They certainly brag loudly about much less significant features. I think you are just drawing the wrong conclusions based on sketchy and sometimes poor information. If one piano suffers from rust while the next one a block away doesn't, it's not because one has rust proof strings.

Salesman and piano owners are NOT tech experts. They don't service pianos in the field. I will tell you that either one quite often does not even recognize the corrosion that already exists in their own pianos, because they never really looked at them that closely with adequate lighting. More often than not they are totally surprised when I show it to them. If you talk to actual techs who have been around a long time here, you will find more agreement with my observations and approaches to prevention of climate problems. My 'odd ideas' are totally in keeping with what I found the better techs here in san Diego were already doing for climate control.

Regards,

Rick Clark