playing fake book chord symbols

As a beginner, I am learning that in piano (much more so than in other fields I've been exposed to), two people will advise two directly opposing views about basics, and both are certain they are right. <g>

Regarding playing chord symbols in popular music fake books. Not how the chord is fingered, but WHEN it is played. I am assuming block chords, not open chords. I've always assumed that all measures needed a chord, and if there was no printed chord symbol (a measure was missing a printed symbol, and there was no 'No Chord' nomenclature), that one was to just repeat the previous chord symbol for each measure until it changed (like to keep the beat I suppose). Maybe that rule is more more true of rock than softer settings. I dont think my teacher has ever mentioned this, I read it elsewhere before I started lessons. I cannot find that now to verify it is true, despite having a few 'How to play from a fake book' type of books. They mention fingering styles, but say nothing about when.

But if it is true to 'repeat previous chords until it changes', it must not be a blanket 'always true' rule. When is it true? (if at all)

For example, the music for Memories (from Cats). Regular fake books and PVG books show it as 12/8 time (most of it) and both 12/8 versions show a chord symbol per measure (generally, some measures have more).

But two different versions of Easy Fake Book show the same song somewhat simplified, similar but in 6/4 time. 6/4 time has double the count of half length measures, as compared to 12/8 time. However these 6/4 versions have generally the same chord symbols, meaning a symbol generally only on every other short measure so the chord symbols are the same, and the chord symbol count comes out the same as the longer 12/8 version, with same chord in the same note location.

Now it would seem that if one played that 6/4 version, and repeated the 'missing chords' on every other measure which didnt show any chord symbols (rule above), they would play double the chords (every chord repeated again) as compared to the 12/8 version. This sound would be quite different, and so this seems wrong, giving doubt to the general rule of repeating the previous chord until it changes. (or perhaps both of two different Easy versions simply failed to include N.C. symbols on every other measure?)

Sorry that I am arguing with myself, but from a 'basics' point of view, what is actually correct? I'm not looking for the 'play the chords however you wish' answer here. There must be some generally true basic concept behind it, generally about WHEN the printed chord symbols are to be played? Presumably everyone but me should know it.

2. And related, and if true, and if in some unnamed song, there is generally a chord symbol starting each measure (some measures have two or more), and then one encounters a measure with only one printed chord in the middle of the measure, does this rule imply one repeats the previous chord at the beginning of that measure too?

Well I'm no expert on Fake books but my experience is that the chord is repeated until it either changes or is stopped by some sign meaning 'tacet'.

From your description I am guessing that your 6/4 time rendition is expected to be played at 'quarter note in 6/4' = '8th note in 12/8' (although I don't see what in has instead of those 10/8 measures!) and in each you are expected to play an arpeggio style accompaniment of 3 note chord to each beat [dotted half].

Yes. What else could you play??

Maybe you are getting hung up on chords? While you are ignoring the rhythm as you say, isn't this the point? You should be playing arpeggios for the main chorus and you just keep vamping in the same chord until it changes.

Bernard Hill Braeburn Software Author of Music Publisher system Music Software written by musicians for musicians http://www.braeburn.co.uk Selkirk, Scotland

I may not understand your full meaning Bernard, but I am thinking not. It simply appears as ordinary fake book sheet music in 6/4 time, and there is no evidence or mention that it was ever 12/8, unless one discovers the other version independently, which I did, which caused the problem. <g>

The 6/4 versions are Easy (beginners) fake book versions, and they are somewhat simplfied. Mainly key is C instead of Bb and the resulting chords are simpler letter-wise. But other than such direct simplificaton, comparing both versions, the notes are otherwise the same. I assume the notes should be played accordingly, as they appear.

To show the two versions, my shorthand legend next refers to measures containing two dotted quarters and six eighth notes:

The 12/8 begins 4. 4. 8 8 8 8 8 8 with one Bb chord symbol, The 6/4 begins 4. 4. 8 8 8 8 8 8 with one C chord symbol on the first measure, and no chord symbol on the second (no N.C. either).

It simply has an additional measure bar line, and it says 6/4 now. Otherwise the same notes, and same number of notes, and the same tune, which seems right enough unless someone thinks they should repeat the previous chord on the second measure, which seems wrong. Every second short 6/4 measure has no chord, where all long 12/8 measures do (generalizing), but as actually written, it keeps the same chord/note relationship. If the general rule is that one repeats the previous chord until it changes, then this case is wrong. I suppose errors do occur, but it really confuses the troops <g>

It is very confusing to me, in that there appears to be no instruction that repeating previous chords is wrong here (it seems wrong, hence my question about it). Normally when I think something about music is wrong, its me instead. Maybe not this time. <g>

BTW, I suspect the 6/4 conversion was done to simplify the fact that the 12/8 also has 3 or 4 occasional single measures that are shifted to 6/4 for one dotted half note and chord.

Thanks, I will just assume that the problem is with a bad conversion (preparation) of the 6/4 version, resulting in incorrect representation of the chord timing regarding measures. However, the error is the same in two separate Easy versions of this, not identical arrangements, seeming doubly odd then (one version also minimizes tied notes). They could have the same origin I suppose, one is Hal Leonards Easy Fake Book, and I dont know the other, I only see its one page.

Thanks. I didnt see how it could be done differently, but wasnt sure if maybe the chords were only played as directly printed, like the 6/4 example above (and like when there are three chords in one measure). Explicit is good for me. Those open chords may be the next lesson <g>

Wayne, There are not specific rules to faking it. You fake the song based on the fact you have heard it and understand it. But if your book states N/C then you just play the melody as a break. With fake books, you dont need to get hung up on time signatures and all that. Fake books are to learn and play songs in an instant. But if you are not familiar with the song to start with, it does not matter if you are playing 12/8 or 6/4

Hm. Sounds like a different piece in 6/4 eh?

DUM dum DI di di di di di DUM dum DI di di di di di

as opposed to the proper

DUM dum di di di di di di DUM dum di di di di di di

where all the didi's are really an extended upbeat to the strong DUM dum.

I wonder if they got permission to write it like that?

However, back to the main point:

My point is that the chord would not be *sounded* as a chord. It is a running continuous triplet arpeggio not a single thump at the beginning of the bar. Fake books are rarely to be played with single chords but you should make up the left hand as appropriate, and a single thump chord is not often appropriate.

So the question of a repeated chord does not appear - you simply continue up and down the same arpeggio when there is no change of chord indicated.

Alternatively on an organ (sustaining keyboard) you would keep the chord going, not re-start it at each measure.

I don't understand that. The 12/8 shifts to 10/8, not any 9/8 or 6/8 or 3/8. One of the charms of the piece is those shocking isolated 10/8 measures. Which is what I was saying about the 10/8: presumably you have some 2/4 + 3/4 or 5/4 measures in there?

Again I wonder who gave permission for this change.

If you had one of those keyboards which can play an automatic rhythmic accomaniment then the problem would go away. You predefine the rhythym and then when you play a chord in the LH this chord is turned into an accomanying rhythmic figure and it will play that until you say stop, or change it.

You don't even have to keep the notes of the chord pressed down - one press and the arpeggio starts and it continues until you say to stop or change it.

So in the case of

Bb Eb F7

you would only strike the keyboard LH at those 3 points but the accompaniment would continue through 2.5 measures using the Bb chord.

Bernard Hill Braeburn Software Author of Music Publisher system Music Software written by musicians for musicians http://www.braeburn.co.uk Selkirk, Scotland

Yeah, that was my issue too. <g> I couldnt make any sense of it, and it seemed very wrong, and it shook my beginners basics. <g>

Thanks for hanging in there Bernard, that answers my question... that the previous fake book chord symbol is indeed to be assumed repeated at each next measure until a changed chord is printed.

And that the real issue is that this Easy version fake book 6/4 version has some serious problems in that regard. I think the bottom line is that fake book chord symbols simply cannot be mapped from 12/8 to 6/4, but it didnt stop them from trying. Going the other direction doesnt seem any problem, it can be printed.

Yes, I see that is what is printed in the P/V/G version bass staff, and it seems very important to the song. I'm not sure this song is so unique in that way, but one is not aware of this by just looking at either version fake book. Yes, one ought to have some familiarity with the original song.

I see now... I didnt understand your reference to 10/8 at first, I had missed that. The full fake book in Bb 12/8 (Ultimate Fake Book) has a few single measures in 6/4. So does the P/V/G version, 12/8 with the same few single measures in 6/4. However I did not notice until now that the 12/8 P/V/G version also has a couple of additional measures in 10/8, in fact the first couple of changes are 10/8. The 12/8 fake book stays in 12/8 at those 10/8 locations (and the eighths are called duplets), and I missed it.

These shifts are surely the purpose for the simplification in the Easy Fake Book, why it uses 6/4 everywhere. Simplification seems a good goal for that Easy purpose, but I think the chord symbols seriously suffered this time, in an unacceptable way.

Actually, that is how this issue came up. A third party with a Yamaha DGX300 keyboard was trying to use the MDB 84 preprogrammed style named Cats Memory for this song Memory from Cats, and discovered this style instead came out in 4/4 time, which wasnt very satisfactory. <g> I suspect it is just an error, but for whatever reason, this one comes out quite wrong in 4/4. There isnt any control to modify the style in this keyboard, and I think you are suggesting that greater control to create styles in top end models would be very useful.

You mean, for the sake of argument? Musically, you shouldn't necessarily assume anything about how the chords should be played - that depends on the style of accompaniment you are trying to create. The best way to see how this is done is to see how others have done it - either by listening and/or watching how others play from fakebooks, or by seeing how sheet music arrangements you like are put together.

Absolutely. You need to keep the pulse going, as well as continue to sound the harmony.

That's because most of these books are not very good.

It is always true unless the arranger screwed up and left out a chord or NC symbol. Of course, just because a chord is specified, doesn't mean you have to keep the pulse going there - you certainly have the right to suspend it for effect whenever you want. And having heard other versions of the tune is often how you get the idea.

None of these version say anything whatsoever about when to play the chords - that's alweaysd your decision. They are specifying what chord is in effect when; it's your job to figure out when to actually play the chord within that time frame. Assuming the chord changes line up with the same melody notes, they are saying the exact same thing in terms of what chords are in effect when. For instance, if there is a 'C' chord on the first melody note of 'C', and an Am on the next time that 'C' occurs as a long note, then it should matter a bit whether the time signature was chosen such that this took up one measure, two measures, or 12 measures.

Not really. The key thing you are missing is that the symbol does not tell you when to play the chord; it tells you the span of time the chord is in effect. Think of it like, say, the new US terror alert level. When it goes to 'orange', then law enforcement and airport security start stepping up their caution. That is true the entire time the alert is in effect. But the level doesn't in itself say anything about exactly when the airport security officer opens a given piece of baggage for inspection - he does it according to his own pace, as long as the orange alert is in effect. Similarly, when you see a 'C' chord symbol, it means you play a 'C' chord at your own discretion as long as that symbol is in effect. You could do it with one block chord right when at the start of that period and then hold it for four beats (repeating as necessary until the chord changes), or you could keep a running arpeggio going the entire time, or you could alternate the block chord with a bass note every two beats - whatever suits your fancy.

Yes - although, again, I wouldn't use the word 'repeats' here, as that might seem to imply something about actually playing the chord at the beginning of the measure. Instead, think of it as the previous chord remaining in effect, so whatever accompaniment pattern you set up in the previous measure continues into this one.

Of course they can - you just have to let go of the notion that a chord symbol at a particular place is an instruction to actually *play* the chord at that precise moment. The regions covered by the chords should correspond perfectly no matter how you notate it - whether one measure of 12/8, two of 6/4, four of 3/4, or 24 of 1/16.

Another way of looking at it - think of the bar line as have no relevance whatsoever to the chords. Each chord remains in effect until the next chord symbol, regardless of how many bar lines intervene. How often you actually play the chord is entirely your own business - again, regardless of the location of the bar lines.

fake book.

It isn't *unique* to this song in the sense of no other songs doing it, but it is 'associated' with this song in the sense of that's how it is usually done. There are other songs usually played that way - ones that come to mind are 'Send In The Clowns' and 'Color My World'. Realistically, there are millions of songs out there, but only a relative handful of different basic accompaniment styles.

Thanks Marc, that was all very helpful, and I think I did understand it. I appreciate that the chord concept is extremely important, and that's my goal, something I must and will learn. So there's absolutely no disagreement, it's just that right at the moment, I'm still trying to find which way is up, and 'when' really seems a bigger issue to me than however the music might sound. <g>

Because, I'm at an early beginner level, and most of my effort and goal is trying to make two hands work together. It eventually becomes more doable after a major struggle, but I suspect all of my issues may be rather different than your issues. <g>

For that purpose, the teacher currently has me playing some easy classical pieces where chords as such are not a factor, but also has me choosing and playing some popular music, which must be PVG format, but currently playing it in fake book style. There are lots of things to learn, and the chords seem all important. It's early yet, and mostly it has been block chords, but some has been open chords - I've been working on Moon River both ways. There are of course many issues yet, but its getting better. But in the current situation here, When really does seem quite important. <g>

I am not trying to play this one Memory piece. I feel sure my teacher would not allow either the Easy version or the fake book version, it must be PVG at this point. This subject came up a very different way, and was more of an academic question. I was very confused by the 12/8 to 6/4 'easy' mapping, and I think maybe it didnt come out right.

Right, but the *melody* is very much changed by 6/4 rather than 12/8 as I said in another thread. It makes you put an emphasis on the figure in 8th notes whereas this is simply an extended 'pickup' for the melody in the next bar.

Bernard Hill Braeburn Software Author of Music Publisher system Music Software written by musicians for musicians http://www.braeburn.co.uk Selkirk, Scotland

I'd have to see the specific examples to see what you mean. Sure, it would be poossible to change the piece in the process of the conversion, and if it's losing the bars of 10/8 and so forth, clearly, they would have had to do this. But in general, you can change 12/8 into 6/4 with no difficulties. The only difference would really be in jazz context, where this would suggest what notes 'swing'.