Tone Collector

Hi all: Missed me? I have been in piano newsgroup hibernation for some time. I have made a wonderful adjustment to my new employer, and having seen the unusual marketing tactics of my previous employer, am thrilled to be where i am, doing what I am doing. (Larry,Ii am being as uncommercial as possible; I hate it when you yell at me) There is a component used in Piano Construction known as a tone collector. I would really like to understand what this does, and the associated benefit. (It is an iron or steel fixture that encompasses the support beams in a grand. Thanks for your help, POOF!

Yes!

I could have sworn we explained that to you once, but let's do it again - you can either fit the back beams into the belly rail by cuting and fitting them together using joinery, or you can make a metal bracket that lets you simply hang the beams into a metal bracket so that you don't have to do all that cutting and fitting. Then, you can send a picture of this cheap way of attaching the beams to the belly rail to the marketing department and let them come up with a cute name for it to give salesmen something to talk about.

The last thing you want under the piano is something that 'collects the tone'. And even if that were something desirable, you couldn't do it with a piece of metal that basically amounts to nothing more than a fancy rafter bracket. So I guess if you want it put into a sentence what a 'tone collector' does, it would be.......

nothing.....other than save money for the manufacturer and allow unskilled labor to build pianos.

Larry Fletcher Dealer/technician

Doing the work of three men.....Larry, Curly, & Moe

Your reply has not improved since your first feeble attempt, to discredit that which transcends your limited understanding.

However, I forgive you.

To say that Larry's understanding is 'limited' is to imply that you already know a better answer. But you don't. So your statement above is bereft of reason.

I find Larry's description entirely accurate. Calling it a 'tone collector' is sales babble for something that in itself does not make a piano any better or any worse, but is cheaper to accomplish than skilled wood joinery.

Regards,

Rick Clark

collector.

The biggest problem with Tone Collectors is that they fill up (like the drip pan under the fridge) and you have to dump them out and clean them from time to time.

Ron,

The term 'Tone Collector' is some marketing persons idea. The part has a definite function, and there is good reason that most of the finest pianos in the world use this Steinway invention from oh so long ago.

In the original patent the part was called a 'Shoe.' The purpose is to create a very rigid connection between the iron frame at the pinblock area and the beams under the piano. Although this connection can be accomplished with wood only, piano designers I have spoken with about the subject have told me that the metal connection between the iron frame and the end-grain of the beams underneath provides more power and sustain to the tone of the instrument than if the connection is made through the belly rail wood. The belly rail or cross block (depending on where the connection is tied together) is going to have the force applied through the width of the wood (across the grain), and this is substantially more pliable than either the end grain of the beams or the iron shoe.

Simply put, the result of this rigid tie-in is to help keep the tone in the strings and soundboard. The plate at the front of the piano (in the pinblock area) serves as a termination for the strings, and this structure can vibrate a lot. Although the plate struts anchor it pretty solidly fore and aft, the plate webbing / pinblock area can still vibrate up and down.

The plate horn (a part of the casting which drops below the strings in the tenor area of the piano) connects to the shoe and thereby to the beams in order to create a really solid anchor for the plate, to reduce vertical vibrations which will rob energy from the strings. If the horn is anchored to the cross block it will help to stop the vibrations, but a harder anchor will do a better job.

There is no cost savings to using the shoe - it requires more work to fit it to the piano than simply making butt-joints of the beams against the cross block. The beams still have to be cut to length - it's not really easier to cut them to fit the shoe than it is to make an angled cut to fit the cross block. The casting itself also adds cost to the piano, and it is cheaper to leave it out.

I have personally heard pianos where the connection between the plate horn and the shoe was missing. There is a dramatic change in the tone when the horn is tight against the shoe vs. not connected. I have not personally tested using a wood shim versus a metal one (to see if the metal is better than wood idea is verifiable), but the engineers at Kawai have done extensive testing of this, and found that the metal connection is better.

Don Mannino RPT

Not intending to argue with you, Don, but who would these finest pianos be? Certainly not Bechstein, Bosendorfer, Fazioli, Bluthner, Grotrian, August Forster, Steingraeber, Ibach, or any of those guys. As far as I know, other than Steinway (do they still use it too?) it seems to be found only on Samicks, Yamahas, and Kawais. If you know of a fine piano maker using this method, please correct me.

Now *there's* a trick.......

Larry Fletcher Dealer/technician

Doing the work of three men.....Larry, Curly, & Moe

Not to stir the pot, but just for the record: While the 'craftsmen/carpenters' among us may cringe when they see them , those metal joist hangers and other miscellaneous metal brackets & doodads, are all actually far stronger, quicker/easier/less expensive to install , and result in less waste, than their conventional installation alternatives.

Dwain

Robert, your comment says something about your age, that you remember those pans - and mine as well, for knowing what you were talking about.

Dwain

Larry,

Since you asked to be corrected, I hope you don't mind my doing so.

As I said, most of the finest pianos use this feature. That would eliminate a few of those off-brands you mentioned. There are a few really top quality piano makers who don't use the cast metal shoe design, of course. If all pianos shared the same designs, our lives would sure be boring.

I noticed that Schimmel calls it the 'Tension Collector.' So playing a Schimmel must relieve all stress and tension from the body! Now that's a feature worth having

So here are the better quality piano companies which I know use the plate horn / metal shoe design (alphabetical order):

Baldwin (yes, still making pianos) Fazioli (check your facts, Larry good buddy. There are pictures right there on the Fazioli web site. Hint: they paint it gold) Kawai (RX, Shigeru Kawai, GS-100, and EX models) Schimmel Steinway Yamaha (in the C and S models)

You might note that both of the Japanese companies leave this feature off of the lower cost models.

I believe the Bösendorfer 280 also has one, although my memory from the NAMM show is not clear about this. If someone who sells them can speak up, I'd appreciate knowing for sure. This is the new concert grand model that Bösendorfer came out with a few years ago that is designed to give a more powerful tone than their other models. Beautifully built piano!

My point is not to say that a piano MUST have a shoe (or tone collector or whatever you call it) in order to be a quality piano. My point is that the shoe is not a cost savings feature, but is there for tonal reasons.

Don Mannino RPT