Too Old to Learn? Where Do I Begin?

Brian,

I'm certain you'll get a lot of good advice here, so I'll keep my response short. I started at age 47, took some lessons, and am having a great time playing piano.

If you love music, and are excited by 'making' music, it's never too late.

How does the Sudnow method teach the chord voicings? A finger chart for the keys? If so, I'd think such a simplistic approach would be frustrating for someone who already knows how to read music.

Thanks for the thorough account of the Sudnow method. I grew up playing classical music, can read well, but I've always wanted to be able to acquire the 'recipes' to play standards on the fly. This sounds exactly like what I've been trying to find.

One thing I forgot to mention is that Sudnow is quite adamant that a person needs to spend at least an hour a day practicing in order to make the kind of progress that keeps you motivated. He says that this time can be split into 15 minute segments if need be. He also says that when you are at the piano, you have to be 'fully there'. In other words, when your mind starts to wander to other things such as what happened at work or what else you have to do, it is best to just get up and walk away from the piano. He says that a person should be able to focus for 15 minutes at a stretch anyway.

Another thing he stipulates is to always practice 'on time, perfectly', because if you teach your hands to do it wrong, that is what they will do. He likens it to ironing a shirt. If you are not careful, you may iron a wrinkle, and then you can never fully get that wrinkle out no matter how hard you try.

You have to be very attentive and 'caring' in your approach to the keyboard. In th original tapes, he spent a lot of time on how our bodies actually learn very fast, and that repeatedly practicing it wrong, or even sometimes wrong and sometimes right greatly slows down our progress and can actually ruin our chances of performing the tune with real authority later on. He cautions you that our culture does not lend itself to this sort of care taking, and that we have to want to play bad enough to overcome that cultural conditioning.

The general approach he takes is that you learn one or two of what he calls the 'dot songs', where he shows dots on a keyboard for each chord that you play, and you learn these tunes exactly. He explains a method for memorizing a tune that really does work well. Then, you go on through some voicing excercises in which he gives you a melody note and names a chord, and you have to voice the chord underit. He gives you the answer with a short dicusssion of any difficulties with that particular situation. Then, you start picking your own tunes from a fakebook and coming up with your own arrangements. He has a shorthand for notating your own voicings next to the chord in the fakebook so you remember them. He wants you to arrange and memorize for ready performance 15 or 20 tunes. The purpose is to get the chord forms and methodology into your hands solidly. From there, you can go on to explore anything else you want on your own.

It is important to make sure that you understand exactly what he is saying. When I went through the course, I listened to the tapes every day in my car for that first year, over and over again, while practicing exactly as he said, when I got home. At the end of that year, I had the two 'dot songs' down cold, as well as 6 or 8 tunes of my own arranging. It was a lot of fun to be able to walk up to a piano and just sit down without sheet music and play real songs that people know.

I spoke one time with a woman who was a concert classical pianist who had toured Europe and had her own coach who travelled with her. She said it was very embarassing to her that she could play anything written that was put in fornt of her, but could not play 'Happy Birthday' when requested to do so. I met her through a group we had several years ago that studied the sudnow method. She did learn to play 'Happy Birthday' in various ways as well as any tune from a fakebook. It took her a very short time to master these concepts because she already knew how to play piano. All she had to do was add sudnow's ideas to her approach. Since then, I have met several classically trained pianists who are lost when handed a fakebook and asked to play the tune. This is firsthand observation, so I know that Sudnow was not lying when he said that. In all fairness, I have also met many who could play from a fakebook, but they had previous experience playing in night club types of situations.

Anyway, I hope you find the Sudnow materials as worthwhile as I have. It is interesting how a person who has never had piano lessons t all can come to such thinking as Sudnow's with an open mind, while I have seen people who have been taught in a more traditional manner really have a tough time with Sudnow's approach.

Tony B

I'm not answering your question but I would appreciate any comments from experienced people on this. I'm 24 now, I wonder if I'm too old to learn. I began playing at my 12th for four years or so , then I quit learning new classical pieces, just playing a little in rock bands and stuff.However I restarted playing about 2 years ago. I started where I left which was the first Bach Inventio, I now play about 5 inventio's, a few preludes and fugues, some chopin (easy chopin like nocturne n 2 op 9), some Mozart sonates. I read that memorisation before the age of 16 is never forgotten, I suppose that could be true in my case, I must say that memorisation is more difficult now, however that is probably because I learned to read better and because I learn pieces faster now, (less repetition , less memory ?)

My question is the following, can I still acquire a lot of technique now that I am 24? Or is my capacity for learning lowered? I'm very motivated. I ask this because my teacher said that I should go to the conservatory, that I would be able to. I would if I had trained my fingers more on an earlier age, but now I wonder if I could achieve a good technique?

Thanks

No, you are not too old to learn.

Tony B

Obviously you haven't read Wayne Fultons post (he started with 65) or can't believe it. Even if you hadn't already played, I would say you are not too old. It is never too late to start with piano and being just 24 you've got a lot of time. Of course, with age it takes longer to memorize and get the body to make all these necessary movements you haven't learnt yet, but keeping an eye (and an ear) on what it really means to play piano you can do it. Playing piano doesn't only mean hitting the right notes at the right time with the right force no matter how. It involves controlling the muscles that take part, breathing, fast score recognition and transition into respective movements, memorizing, having a mental idea of how the music should sound, listen to yourself, staying in good health (did I miss sth.?).

I read it. I know that musically I can still evolve a lot. However I still wonder , especially since my left hand is far behind on the right if it is not to late to develop that part of the brain for fast playing. Let's say that I'm able to play the sonata facile by Mozart technically (by wich I mean that I can keep the fingers in rythm as I want them to )correct (almost), would it be actually fysically possible for me to play the Chopin Etudes (at tempo and quite correct) in about 6 years from now (with 3 hours of practice a day eg). You can say that it is, but I really need a living example, because I wouldn't consider attending conservatory if no one of my level has ever been able to achieve a 'normal' conservatory graduate level. I would be giving up a lot ( like medical school ) for attending this, and there is still the issue of living from your music (eating, paying for stuff). I'm sorry , I don't want to be rude but I really need very objective facts, its really important to me not to chase a goal that I can never achieve.(choices in life, pff)

cheers

'Edgar' < This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it > schreef in bericht

Asking 'Will I be able to play XYZ in X years good enough to make my living?' is quite different from 'Am I too old for piano?'. It is rather difficult to give a good answer from the distance without knowing your medical and musical talents. I don't know what a doctor gets paid in your country (Netherlands?), but as long as you don't make it to the top, here in Germany a doctor usually makes more money than a musician. The general question is 'What do you expect from future?' Do you want to be (real) rich? Do you want a job that satisfies you and provides you with enough money (whatever 'enough' means to you)? Why not have both, become a doctor and make music in your spare time, e.g. in a local orchestra or in a band like you did before?

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:39:08 +0100, 'Sandman'

More than enough in Belgium, but not very important . Spare time would be a problem when becoming a doctor in Belgium. I thought of combining, but I'm approaching the end, which means the following two years will be spent in a clinic, afterwards at home or in a clinic. Not much time left for practicing. (maybe in about 4 years I would be able to make a few hours a day, maybe)

That's probably what it's gonna be. An old organist-doctor did the same (he took private lessons until his 25th or so), he probably can play the etudes, but he told me that I should profit of my next 6 years for studying and acquiring technique. He told me that after thirty, it becomes a lot more difficult to acquire techn. You can offcourse learn a lot of new pieces and improve on musical interpretation but ... techn. improvement will be more difficult if one I would like to reach a high level. (that's what he told me)

Maybe that's a possibility for me, taking private lessons and trying to play an hour a day, and 2 hours a day in weekends. At this moment (5th year that is) I'm taking lessons in a normal city music academy - 1/2 hour a week. I just don't want to waste my time now that I'm young(?).

Thanks for the response allready.

What is your objective for learning piano? I don't think you can combine a medical career with that of a concert pianist, especially at your age. But if you want to compose, teach, or do gigs, then it might be possible, but each objective will require a different plan/approach. Tell us more exactly what you want to achieve. C. C. Chang; more on piano practice at