What constitutes musically?

The comments on the Grammy thread suggest Norah Jones is more 'The Real Thing' than, say, Avril Lavigne. But I wonder. Isn't all pop music fairly disposable, like cotton candy? Listen to Simon & Garfunkle sing The Sounds of Silence. Aren't you embarrassed to think you once thought that soooo profound? All pop music quickly becomes 'oldies' in no time flat. The pop/rock genre is inherently shallow. No one would think to re-record a pop song and glean any additional insight from it. Kern, Cole Porter, Gershwin and others ... that's another story. Similarly bluegrass, jazz, folk and other more traditional forms of music. These lend themselves to reinterpretation. But re-record a Moody Blues song, or Jethro Tull, or the Stones, or the Beatles, or Elton John or Norah Jones ten years after it's first airplay and what's the point? I can't at the moment think of a reason why I think this is so but I don't believe it's just a matter of simple 'taste.' There's something that makes Melville and Hawthorne 'better' than [fill in the blank].

Aw, let's let the children have their playtoys already.

Actually, I can think of one well-known counterexample to your argument: Whitney Houston's version of 'I Will Always Love You,' as used in the movie 'The Bodyguard.' Mind you, I'm not saying I like it, because I loathe it; Carol Burnett's famous imitation Tarzan-yell is far more musical, IMAO.

At the risk of starting a big old flamewar, I'll agree with you on pop/rock/popera/rap/justaboutanythingelse, except that I do believe that great Jazz has a timeless value that all great art does. Wayne Shorter, Duke Ellington, Ella, real musicians like that rarely make shallow music. Currently Dave Holland and Danlio Perez are doing some fabulous things that I don't think will be lost to the tide of public opinion like so much pop and rock. Partly it may be a difference of culture, musically speaking. Concert music (a better word than 'classical' I feel) respects and studies its history, just as Jazz does. You don't see that as much on the rock et al side of the fence. Jazz also shares with concert music a zeal for innovation that isn't as apparent in pop, but that's another issue...

The most surprising material has been transformed by great artists - look at My Favourite Things or the Inch Worm by Coltrane or the national anthem by Hendrix. These are reasonably serious cultural statements, and I'd expect them to have some longevity. I take the point that most pop material makes sense within it's culture - 'they're playing our tune, darling' so to speak .'What tune?' would make it less relevant (oh dear, there's that 'relevant' word).Within the lifetime of a tune there are some very interesting variations on the originals - Kieth Jarrett playing Dylan and Joni Mitchell, Donny Hathaway playing Marvin Gaye, Lennon's 'I'm just a jealous guy' etc. I do think pop tunes have some legs for those of us who went through their culture - we may cringe with a few decades hindsight at the music that thrilled us as teenagers, but that music DID thrill us as teenagers, and some of the magic lives on or can be revived by the Kieth Jarretts of this world. Unfortunately not by the wannabes, samplers and rippers but nothing is going to save them

Ray Hall schrieb:

There is a *big* difference. There may be plenty of nice tunes in pop and jazz (I really do like quite a bit of Jazz and admire the vocal artistry and xepression of singers like Fitzgerald), but I have yet to find anything in Pop, Rock or Jazz that would come close to the great Schubert (or Schumann or Mahler..) Songs as far as expression is concerned; take the Winterreise, the last 10 songs of Muellerin, the Schwanengesang, An die Musik etc. (you may not like the music, but that's not the point) Compared to emotional experiences like this even decent Pop sounds like the self-pitying rambling of teenage kids (which most of it of course is) and only the best things from Gershwin and Weill come within some distance of the best romantic and post-romantic Lieder (Counterexamples are always welcome )

Naturally one can enjoy any music whatsoever. I would never ridicule someone for expressing pleasure over a candy bar simply because it's not a T-Bone steak. It's apples and oranges. We all appreciate high art and low art and recognize, I hope, the difference. Last night my kids were watching 'American Idol' and this guy was singing a song from the '70s (by Journey, I think) and he was **horrible** and he got a standing ovation and was roundly praised by the three 'experts.' I'd have admitted it if he sang it well (like, in tune) but he was awful. I guess it all got to me last night. I think I'm just pissing in the wind.

Sorry.

No one would think to re-record a pop

I think I included jazz in my list of timeless musical genres.

= 8-o

Andante teneramente schrieb:

I don't know Brel and Van Morrison (and I didn't mean that *all* Pop music was without merit or 'worthless crap', there are certainly enterntaining and even moving songs (but almost none that bear repeated exposure) and only some Joplin, Nirvana and R.E.M. But the latter, especially Nirvana are exactly what I had in mind when I wrote 'whining (post) teenage depression or lovesickness' or whatever, sorry about it

I'm wondering just what 'pop and jazz' tunes you've heard. It's impossible to offer an accurate comparison of quality between songs (even among classical composers - is Mullerin 'greater' than Dichterliebe, etc.), I think there are some extremely expressive and well-crafted songs by pop and jazz musicians. Joni Mitchell's 'Willy' and 'Amelia' are two examples - excellent marriages of text and music, great melodies, great harmonies, and great instrumentation. AS a 'cycle', the album 'Hejira' is as expressive and essential to my library as 'Mullerin'. I wouldn't be able to say it is 'better' than Schubert, but it is pretty stunning in all musical aspects. If you think pop songs can't be 'reworked' I urge you to check out the pianist Brad Mehldau. His technique is pretty stunning, as are his original compositions. However, some of his improvisations on pop tunes are ingenious - download both the original Radiohead song 'Paranoid Android' and Mehldau's rendition of it or Nick Drake's 'River Man' and then Mehldau's treatment of it and I think you're in for a treat. His rather edgy and powerful 'Cry Me a River' is also worth investigating, as is his album 'Elegiac Cycle'.

Cheers,

Marcus Maroney marcus dot maroney at yale dot edu

I don't care to argue opinions in general, so I won't agree or disagree with your thesis. But one thing you say is demonstrable untrue.

insight >from it....But re-record a Moody Blues song, or Jethro Tull, or the

Whether you like them or not, these songs are continuously rerecorded, so obviously people do think to do it. There is literally not one Beatles composition that has not been covered. Britney Spears redid a Rolling Stones song and had a hit with it. Rap music samples riffs from classic songs frequently